AN E-MAIL EXCHANGE TO CURL THEM

This is an exchange of mail's that occurred when it was found some pages on my site had come from the 'Classic Motorcycling' site - not that I knew that at the time naturally - but anyway these mails became quite rude and abusive - but ........you form your own Opinion on that matter. - below is the complete mails sent back and forth .........

After obtaining some advice ___ The result is - I have decided to post the mail's in their complete sent and received state as an exercise in how not to respond via email or use the electronic medium, or as a lesson in how misunderstood some recipients can get - not to mention the abuse. I should have dealt with it better - but no ones perfect ..... are they ......

----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:15 AM Subject: Hi There

Gee, it must've taken you a long time o build that classic morotrcycles site and all that GP stuff! Not one original word or pic on it and not one acknowledgement. I'll be interested in looking at your site a bit more closely! Murray Barnard Perth, Western Australia Classic Motorcycling http://members.nbci.com/tr500/index.html

----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:25 AM Subject: Hi There
As mentioned the use of material on your site from others exceeds fair use and it is material which is owned by a number of people including Glenn Morgan, Theo Jonkhart and Roland Sorgner, none of whom have given you permission to use the material. As I have not heard from you I am advising you that if you wish to continue using the material that you provide clear acknowledgement of the source on the pages taken from the Classic Motorcycling site. The extent to which material has been removed is quite extraordinary. However if your aim is to share with others I am happy to share with you, if as mentioned you acknowledge the source of the material. Your interest in motorcycles is such that I would be more than happy to look at opportunities to work together, especially as we both reside in Australia. Please respond to this note to save me taking other action. regards Murray Barnard

Murray at this time also was garnishing support form others - all this before any response to his mails had occurred from myself - the following are two mails from that mail out .........for a writer his spelling is poor

1) ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Morgan & Carol Atmore To: steve@vf750fd.com Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 6:23 PM Subject: pirated pics
Hi! What are some of my pictures doing on this site? I refer to Glenn's Pit Bay. First up - ask! Second up - do something about the definition of the pictures. They look crappy! Third, there is a copyright on those pictures and articles I write and I don't like having to explain what my stuff is doing on your site to people who think (quite rightly) that they have the exclusive right to publish them. Glen

My reply to Glen ....... ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Ingram To: Glen Morgan & Carol Atmore Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: pirated pics
Hi Glen Im Sorry if a breach occurred - a lot of this Classic information came to me from a fellow rider on a 100mb zip disk, knowing I had a bike site that was wanting to preserve bike related info, so it would not be lost. I have seen several sites that I linked to in my links page that have just disappeared and the info is lost - that's why it is on the site in the first place. I had no idea it would cause a problem, or issues with someone called Murray Barnard, who has mailed as well - and I can assume you, for you to mail. The information is purely there to display bike related information - just that. I love bikes and wish to preserve the information of interest for others
If you want it removed just say so - I see from going to Murray's site he has it there anyway - although its on a free webprovider. As for image quality - that can not be changed - what was on the disk is what was used. I am originally from NZ which is why your info was posted in the first instance from what was on the disc
Let me know what you want Regards Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Glens Reply ...... ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen Morgan & Carol Atmore To: Steve Ingram Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 4:06 PM Subject: Re: pirated pics
Thanks for your reply, Steve. Apparently there's quite a lot of stuff from Murray's site on yours. I suggest you e-mail Murray and explain the situation as you have to me. Murray has laboured long and hard to put that site together and it's become something of an icon among sites. This is why I contribute to it so readily. It's Murray's baby and it's very good. Murray acknowledges his sources pretty religiously and gets dead grumpy when others don't. For my part, If you can sort it with Murray, I'd be more than happy to have you use those pics or the technical pieces, but it needs to be recognised that Murray put the effort into editing that stuff, loading it up and making it available. I'm just a scribe! This sort of mutual back-scratching keeps people happy about sharing information, and Murray has been unstinting in his efforts to keep information flowing. Cheers Glen

2)----- Original Message ----- From: GazandAngie@aol.com To: steve@vf750fd.com Cc: motorcycle@bigfoot.com Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: Ripping from other peoples pages!!!!
Hi Steve, I see you are currently engaged in taking images from other peoples sites without the proper authority, permission call it what you will. Please refrain from doing this, or at least give the original authors of their work the recognition they deserve. They did the hard work not you!!!!!! Its easy to rip off somebody elses work and claim it for your own but we know, I think the fact that you put a copyright on your page with my images on it a cheek. Disgusted, Gazza.

My reply to Gazza ........ Im Sorry if a breach occurred - a lot of this Classic information came to me from a fellow rider on a 100mb zip disk, knowing I had a bike site that was wanting to preserve bike related info, so it would not be lost. I have seen several sites that I linked to in my links page that have just disappeared and the info is lost - that's why it is on the site in the first place. I had no idea it would cause a problem, or issues with someone called Murray Barnard, who has mailed as well - and I can assume you, for you to mail. The information is purely there to display bike related information - just that. I love bikes and wish to preserve the information of interest for others If you want it removed just say so - I see from going to Murray's site he has it there anyway - although its on a free webprovider. I left the info that was there on who you were etc, and always do if I have that information The Copyright is on the page design done by another not on the page content Let me know what you want Regards Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Gazza didn't reply to this mail........

So Murray's original mails were pointed, and threatening, but that is somewhat understandable, and for what ever reason he feels he needs to garnish support, sympathy - whatever etc prior to speaking to me and keeping the situation between two people. All these greeted me upon arrival at work on Monday ........ My reply to Murray follows.............

My reply to Murray......----- Original Message ----- From: "Interplan" To: "muzza" Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Hi There
My Computer is at work, hence why I haven't responded to your two emails sent yesterday.
Im Sorry if a breach has occurred, and you feel a bit violated Im sure - this Classic information came to me from a fellow rider here in Brisbane, via a friend of his about 2 months ago, on a 100mb zip disk, knowing I had a bike site that was wanting to preserve bike related info, so it would not be lost. My site has been up and running now for 3 years and steadily is added to. I have seen several sites that I linked to in my links page that have just disappeared and the info is lost and a lot of it technical - that's why it is on the site in the first place, to prevent its loss. I had no idea it would cause such a significant problem, or that your site was involved. That is, I have visited your site today and note the links etc ...... I normally if I know, place info on where the information came from originally. Yes a lot of information on sites comes from other sites and resources. The information is purely there to display bike related information - just that, its not a competition, but a love of bikes. If you want it removed just say so......... Yes we both are in Aus, and your site is very extensive - you must spend hours compiling the information, you are to be congratulated
I have/will mail the others you had mail me as well

Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Murray's reply
----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Interplan" Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Hi There
The point is that the pages have been ripped and identifying info removed. It would have been easy to determine the source. It's not a competition but a question of fair play. A lot of time and energy goes into this work and copyright should be acknowledged where possible. I believe in sharing as much as possible otherwise I wouldn't put the material on the net; however the material is prepared in context and should be seen in context. In this case acknowledgement of source on the GP Champions pages and on the classic bikes eg all the GP Bikes, other classic bikes and other riders pit bays would suffice. There is other material from my site but the use is minor. For the major sites I suggest acknowledgement along these lines...... "Borrowed with permission from the Classic Motorcycling site - see the full site in context at.... http://members.nbci.com/tr500/index-ultimate.htm and http://muzza2.fateback.com/t500scr.htm" I would appreciate the above appearing on each page mentioned above. Please let me know when it is done, so that I can call off the pack of dogs. Murray

My reply to Murray......
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Hi There
Out of interest what does this threat mean exactly .... > > > Please respond to this note to save me taking other action. Do you want to go at - suits me ----- Im out of the office most of the day and tomorrow is a show day here - so it will take time to see what is on your site and relate to the info I was supplied - That info was supplied without source codes back to your site, it had already been altered I now realise by someone - it was not presented as borrowed material - but as material to be used, on older machines of interest. It required a lot of time just to get the info into sense and order. I know one page has additional images - cos I went and got them, will have to check to determine which page it was.

I can read code, so would have noticed if any reference to your site was there ..... all images on my site have a different alt code to yours, as I went thru and did everyone. To sent threatening mails as you did I find somewhat understandable, but you are carrying it on, and frankly not knowing where the material came from originally I only have your word for the fact it is yours, I accept in all probability it is, since your making such a big issue out of it.

As for calling off the dogs - I'm not really sure what your referring to - I've had two other mails - one who is happy to have his page on there - the other hasn't replied. Not all the material is from your site on the Classic page, a high percentage seems to be, the historic and Indian certainly is not - the other owners pit bays are already identified as theirs, so why ask for them to be ?

All info on bikes that one has not personally photographed is obtained from other sources as you know. I have no problem with acknowledging any material on my site if it is known - It is a bike resource site - not an ego site

I have found some of my site art work in strange places - big deal - if its on a webpage it will be used by someone. Since I do have a webpage Im aware a lot of time and energy goes into this work and copyright is acknowledged when I know the source.

By the way my site was originally on Zoom or nbci as they now call themselves and there were a lot of problems with others accessing the site - hence it was moved - you may need to do the same thing
Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW  

----- For some reason this bounced ...... The original message was received at Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:21:20 +1000 from smtpd@localhost ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 554 Access denied from 203.12.160.38. See http://www.bigfoot.com/ORBS for more information) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.bigfoot.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 554 Access denied from 203.12.160.38. See http://www.bigfoot.com/ORBS for more information 554 5.0.0 ... Service unavailable

My reply to Murray......----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 7:19 AM Subject: Re: Hi There ----- For some reason this bounced ...... The original message was received at Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:21:20 +1000 from smtpd@localhost ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 554 Access denied from 203.12.160.38. See http://www.bigfoot.com/ORBS for more information) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.bigfoot.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 554 Access denied from 203.12.160.38. See http://www.bigfoot.com/ORBS for more information 554 5.0.0 ... Service unavailable

----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: Re: Hi There

I sent you a mail yesterday - it seems to have bounced ......... here it is again .......

Out of interest what does this threat mean exactly .... > > > Please respond to this note to save me taking other action. if this is a sample of what you are like, then its a pity you are taking this track - if you wish to threaten me feel free because I will respond in the same manner you use. I find threats pretty pathetic, and a lack of character actually ...... still if you choose that road -- so be it
I'm out of the office most of the day and tomorrow is a show day here - so it will take time to see what is on your site and relate to the info I was supplied - I will temporarily put a disclaimer up there until I resolve the source to my satisfaction.
That info was supplied without source codes back to your site, it had already been altered I now realise by someone - it was not presented as borrowed material - but as material to be used on older machines of interest. It required a lot of time just to get the info into some sense and order. I know one page has additional images - cos I went and got them, will have to check to determine which page it was. I can read code, so would have noticed if any reference to your site was there ..... all images on my site have a different alt code to yours, and functions differently as well, as I went thru and did everyone.
Your first mail was OK. your second a couple of hours later because YOU did not get an instant response was rude and threatening. To sent threatening mails as you did I find somewhat understandable in the heat of the instant, but you seem to want to carry it on, you seem to want to involve some of your mates, kinda pathetic if that is your aim don't u reckon?
Frankly not knowing at this time where the material came from originally I only have your word for the fact it is yours, I accept it in all probability it is, since your making such a big arse issue out of it. As for calling off the dogs - I'm not really sure what your referring to - I've had two other mails - one who is happy to have his page on there - the other hasn't replied. Now if by this you mean you are going to get acquaintances of yours to spam mail me - then you are pathetic to say the least. Still that is an issue you have to live with not me. If they do spam me they will get it back 100 fold .......
Not all the material is from your site on the Classic page, a high percentage seems to be, the historic and Indian certainly is not - the other owners pit bays are already identified as theirs, so why ask for them to be ? All info on bikes that one has not personally photographed is obtained from other sources on the internet as you know. I have no problem with acknowledging any material on my site if it is known, or it requires acknowledgement - It is a bike resource site - not an ego site which your reaction dictates yours is turning into.... I have found some of my site art work in strange places - big deal - if its on a webpage it will be used by someone. I see some of your crash pics are the same as mine - they have been their for 2 years - If it bothered me I would say you have stolen images from my site - but then these images are on several sites - who the fuck cares. Since I do have a webpage I'm aware a lot of time and energy goes into this unpaid work and copyright is acknowledged when I know the source. By the way my site was originally on Zoom or nbci as they now call themselves and there were a lot of problems with others accessing the site - hence it was moved - you may need to do the same thing
Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Wednesday was a holiday here - but I came in especially to put an interim acknowledgement up quickly to Murray's material as noted in the e-mail to him and went home again.........

Murray's reply
----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Hi There
Steve, As expressed, and I was very reasonable about it, I have advised that the material is the same as originated on my site even to the point where you have pics of my own bikes - eg Suzi TR500.....you know that it was "borrowed" as you have stated often....acknowledgement is not unreasonable..others would demand removal....no-one is happy , but prepared to share as long as material is acknowledged...they have sent me their emails so I know, we do talk...they are angry and want to take action eg advise ISP, pursue copyright etc however I have said no...it is OK..Steve has advised me that he will acknowledge material or remove if we wish. ( Note here - this angry mob were stirred up my Murray initially - something that was not fair nor reasonable )
I have said to you great..please acknowledge..lets share.....I have advised you of which material is from my site......I have not threatened you with anything you have described....instead you have threatened me!!! Now to move on from the emotive, Steve.....I really don't care too much and don't hold anything against you or bear any grudge and I won't hound you...I am just saying. the material is mine, please acknowledge....that is the NET etiquette. No need to feel bad about it or get your back up. I am sure if we met we would share our love of bikes, art and architecture and probably much more. Lets do the right thing....I know what I created and you know what you borrowed. I even suggested that with our joint love for bikes and our Aussie location there may be an opportunity to share in future. I have much more to upload yet and maybe it could be launched on your site..eg lot's of Honda material or mirrored (with permission). Lets get over this...there are a lot of better things to do such as ride! Murray

My reply to Murray......From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: back at u

Hi Murray

shit I can see another book is going to be written here ...... As I stated I was given a Zip100 disc with it seems some of your material ..........this statement from you >>>>Lets do the right thing....I know what I created and you know what you borrowed.>>>> Get it into your mind for good chief _ I did not borrow from your site - it was given via a local.

If you persist with believing that, then you personally wont be moving on at all, you will only think you have. As I said previously I apologise if any problems occurred because of this zip disc info - I thought all my Xmas's had come at once when I saw what was on it. Pics of older bikes are hard to find. Not that Ive tried very hard to find any. In fact the recent move to my new host some 2 months or so ago cancelled out the asp security (its not supported there) I had on my art images - so
1) they don't work at present and B) I haven't had time to play around with the cgi bin to make them work without a bit of recoding

If you or your 'nominated angry up in arms' mates had bothered to look, In the Interim yesterday I did put an acknowledgment on the classic page to your site - when I have time I will look at your site to see what you have in there to confirm the duplication.

I personally don't have an ego based site - Oh look at this its all my own work too - aren't I a great guy, so acknowledgments have and will continue to happen. If you had bothered you would find that other pages - for example the Historic and Indian pages on the Classic page do acknowledge where the info came from .... you were a bit quick out of the blocks to point the bone without quietly inquiring - you involved others too quickly without waiting for the perceived breach to be addressed prior to calling in the dogs as you called them - not that they have sent much to me at this time.

I have no idea what type of bikes you own or ride, as stated, as of yet I have not had the time to check out your site in detail - While I have owned Suzuki's in the past - I prefer the honda finish generally

My site originally was about my bikes & architecture/art I guess, yea OK there's naked women on there - now that gets a truck load of visits - and yes the same birds are on 100 other site locations - then I got the links page going which gets about 800 hits a week at times - then some of the riding articles started - and its gone on from there.

I have a passion for bikes - my wife thinks I'm a nut, having served in Asia back in 70 means some others think I'm a nut as well - not my problem, I just like being on the edge. I don't have the time to surf the net looking for sites to 'borrow' material from, I'm on the computer only at work - and unfortunately I have to work most of the time.

You are wrong about me threatening you, you're the one who threatened taking some form of further action not me, you even allude to hounding me in your last post .... lol, just had to get a few swipes in before stating I'm the one being emotive ROFLMAO - if you read my mail again, this time in context, all I said was ... I will respond in kind, if your friends spam so will I etc etc - its as simple as that.

If you are open and friendly so will I be - I do not threaten - its a waste of energy, of time and is totally pathetic & pointless, and frankly it is not living in truth, which is something we should all aspire to. But I was directly telling you ---->.... if someone comes at me I will respond to the threat, whatever form it takes - that is me period. ..... Do you understand what I am saying? I am very comfortable with the fact I can deal with any type of threat in whatever form it takes.

You are also wrong about the emotive part, my back as you allude too is not up, nor do I feel bad about this current 'situation', the situation came from you, you decided perhaps to involve others to light the 'fire'. The only bad thing I feel is the time wasted to send huge e-mails back and forth - so far I am neutral about was has happened - I guess some would say I don't give a rats arse if the material came from your host site or not on an emotive level - Oh yes .... the way it was on the zip - it had been FTP'd onto it originally - cos the sheets while clean of reference to your site (altered after the download later) did not have any gobble gook coding that copying files around different webpage software creates.

While I don't go around borrowing from sites deliberately, as mentioned previously, a lot of great technical and riding briefs have disappeared because the temporary web host they were on are gone - or they have gone etc - I real shame, I truly wish I had copied them when I saw them. Umm This means someone in all probability gained access directly to Xoom and your site - I reckon you should change whatever your password is

As you said lets move on ........... If an exchange happens in future, fine I don't have a problem with that. My site is hosted where I have 500Mb available - I am using 111 at present. Yes Honda stuff would be nice. If you wish to dump stuff onto some of the available space that's cool - that's you choice to do - its all paid for etc As for riding - I do that everyday - and sneak out during the day to our local double mountain run sometimes for a quick 130 Klick twistie phang when I can

Your turn now .....hehehe - no doubt you will find something to misinterpret and respond to .....:)

Did I tell you even tho these e-mails take time - its still kinda fun ?? I'm terrible for winding up things too ....

Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Murray's reply
----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: back at u

You are getting highly offensive. Sitting back and looking at this email exchange you seem to have missed the point.

Doesn't matter how you came by it...I am asking for acknowledgement please on the pages borrowed.
( Note this was already done amd posted).
You keep raising the ante with abuse and keep justifying the act but despite all...it is my material and acknowledgement is the ethical thing. As to your explanation...I don't need to know...I just need to know that the work is correctly acknowledged. Some of the material on your site was only created on my site from original material late June 2001 so it is not years old. Also many of the pictures have been modified to remove my name or the site ID. Do I have to send you details of the magazines from which some of the material you are using was originally published - text and photos by me - and published under my name in Classic Motorcycling Magazine. The material is copyright. I am offering to allow you to continue using the material with appropriate acknowledgement. That is fair. As you an architect...then you would know a lot about intellectual copyright and fair use and know that I am being reasonable. I am not blaming or seeking aplogies. That is not necessary. As to ego....seeking acknowledgement of intellectual copyright is a right not an egotistical act...copying and using other's work could be seen to be exactly what you suggest. It is simple really..no need for such anger and antagonism. I don't need to be lectured to about my work. You have acknowledged that the work is borrowed, as is nearly everything on your site, please fix it. Murray

My reply to Murray...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:56 AM Subject: Re: back at u

Mate - I'm going to ignore most of your post - this has deteriorated to far me thinks - trying to inflect some humour has had the opposite affect - shame

Did you bother to really read the mail, or just read what you thought was there? - because you obviously missed this part .......and no I haven't missed any point at all ......I think its an inverse point at present. It seems to me that the point is being lost in rhetoric - read what was sent again

> >If you or your 'nominated angry up in arms' mates had bothered to look, In
> >the Interim yesterday I did put an acknowledgment on the classic page to
> >your site - when I have time I will look at your site to see what you have
> >in there to confirm the duplication.

I'm highly offensive huh ROFLMAO - this means in case u don't know .... rolls on the floor laughing my arse off - your making me grin to much ....... cut it out Murray
I'm glad you have time and the talent to research and write articles for magazines - wish I did
I don't read the Classic Motorcycle magazine so no I didn't know some of the material was in a magazine or was copyrighted as such - why would I? I can now understand why you got so steamed, I would too - why didn't u say so originally?
No my site does not contain original material on Bikes - why would it? will aside from my own bike photos - its there purely to provide bike information - in some cases to bring spread out information into one area - thot that had been made clear - guess not - umm stop taking swipes - kinda pointless no?

The info collected is being used as is witnessed by the amount of traffic - yea OK the naked women scores highest - guess sex sells still ...... If you want me to keep your info on the site - since I'm apparently so Offensive - perhaps you can nominated the pages that were in the magazine and when so it can be noted as such?

Cheers mate
Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/ http://clik.to/interplan VF750FD CBR900RRW

Murray's reply - note again acknowledgement was advised on the previous day at 8.12am

----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 6:05 PM Subject: Re: back at u

Steve, once more. I have advised you which pages are lifted from my website, directly or indirectly..
I shall do it again for our mutual benefit. The pages are: All the GP bikes pages All of the Other Classic Bikes pages (except for a couple of Parila shots taken from elsewhere) All of Glenn's, Theo's and Gazza's Pit Bay pages. and the GP winners - 50cc, 80cc. 125cc, 350cc, 500cc

Perhaps it would be easier to deal with you if they were removed seeing as it is so difficult to get you to acknowledge original material.

Would that be your preference? Either acknowledge each page or remove them, the choice is yours.

I hope people don't treat your business/work with such contempt. You say I don't read your messages, that sounds like projection, Steve.

Basically your messages are abusive and unfunny. Please try and work with me on this. Murray

My reply to Murray......----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 8:57 AM Subject: Re: back at u

Murray I am bored with this endless round of swipes you manufacture, then try and make it an issue as my problem

As I have stated several times - I will respond in like manner to you, if you think I'm abusive and unfunny then that is how you look to me as well

I have now INCLUDING this mail told you 3 TIMES all pages have been identified

To make it obvious again this was done WEDNESDAY morning, yet u persist in stating the demand over and over

You have been in there yet have not noticed this - perhaps you should dump your cache
As I am going to place pages on podium finishes, All race winners etc up soon - perhaps you can nominate if you have this info on your site somewhere as well - will save some future e-mails no doubt
Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/

Murray's reply - ----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 9:25 AM Subject: Re: back at u

Mr Ingram
you keep telling me that the link is interim and subject to you checking an my providing you with proof.

This is despite the obvious and your acknowledgement that it is not your material.

I am sick of you, You need help, you keep telling me I haven't looked etc etc ad nauseum.....I have but your mesages conflict.

Talk to someone about projection...you need treatment.

You are the most nauseous person I have ever dealt with on the net.

How you run a business I don't know.

What professional standards you have I can't imagine.

I shall check again, because what I saw last time was a reluctant acknowledgement and only on the index page for the Classics.

If you don't like this exchange them take them down. Stop being holier than thou...you have my property not the reverse.

If this hasn't or doesn't stop, I will be writing to you. My job is to prosecute people and if you continue to treat me as a piece of shit instead of a person with enforceable rights then you will be hearing from me outside of email!!!

Grow up Mr Ingram.

Shall I send the notice of injunction to : PO Box 491 Capalaba Queensland AU (07) 3229 0433 Fax- (07) 3221 1654 or to your ISP?
Which address would you care to nominate.

Murray wrote again shortly - OK 15mins after his abusive mail above .......

----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: back at u

Mr Ingram you are a genius
very impressive acknowledgement, using great skill. If it could only have been done with some grace and less abuse it would have been a more pleasant experiece. Looks like I won't have to write a serious letter to you after all. Do you know that instead of sending me a load of abuse each time, a simple sentence such as " I have placed an acknowledgement on each of your pages. ( - note again acknowledgement was advised on Wednesday at 8.12am ) Thanks for sharing" would have worked wonders. I trust that this is the last email I will need to send. May the rest of your days be more peaceful than the last few. regards Murray

My reply to Murray......----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Ingram" To: "muzza" Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: the final lap perhaps

Gidday Murray the party by whom criminal proceedings are instituted or conducted - umm sent without prejudice

I can assume then you do not have podium, fastest lap, poles etc on your site since u did not bother to answer

Please try not to take this next lot of text the wrong way also ........

My days are always peaceful mate - nothing you have sent has bothered that - sorry to disappoint perhaps, as for I'm the most nauseous person u have ever dealt with on the net, that's OK hehe - u can think what u like - its just your insular observation.

You can send anything to me at anytime, e-mail, mail, in person whatever - only too willing to as I've said before respond it the kind of way you have to me.

And that is all I have ever done.

If u cant see that - not my issue.

If you regard me as all the things you stated in the 9.25am mail, then that is like your throwing stones inside a glasshouse mate, but perhaps u don't really see that either.

And I'm pleased you have at last got your hand off it Murray - sorry had to pop that in there - whoops that's right you don't like my humour do u, or perhaps its cos I leave off the smiley faces perhaps ....

I'll share the full load of both sets of e-mails with some ex SAS mates for a giggle sometime over a few beers

I guess this means you don't wish me to upload anything else u were going to send over? or don't have room for on Xoom - shame if that is your response - as I said to you - winding up folks is one of my bad habits ..... I really shouldn't I know, but you just pressed a few buttons that responded that way.

I have no ill feelings or anything - but anyway what u do from here obviously is up to you - e-mails are difficult cos they don't really convey the humour or intent correctly or fully.

So do you want to kiss and make up or just bugger off somewhere in a funk? Sorry bike riders are kinda obnoxious come at u folks a bit - that's why they ride bikes amongst other things

Take care
Steve http://www.vf750fd.com/

Murray's reply Friday, August 17, 2001 12:06 PM ----- Original Message ----- From: "muzza" To: "Steve Ingram" Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 7:41 PM Subject: Re: the final lap perhaps

Glad to put it to the vote on who has their hand on it the most.. I'll share some links with you later about intellectual copyright, the law in Australia and netiqutte. I wish you well. I imagine you need some SAS boys to save you from yourself. Having spent a lot of time in the military and being closely associated with our SAS boys here I am sure your mates will pass you a beer and forgive you for you can't help it.

here endeth the email saga for a few days ..........

I haven't replied yet ....... actually - after waiting (busy) till Thursday of the following week to reply to Murray _ I found he had blocked my mails - so sent him a mail from another account ......

To: motorcycle@bigfoot.com From: steve@superbikeclub.com Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:07:47

Subject: back at you
Hi Murray your free mail gets a lot of bounces .....
My "assumption" is you have blocked my mail - if so, that is petty
Sorry been badly work busy, i.e. out on site and as you know I'm not on my computer on the weekend.
While helping a mate with his computer I did manage to look at your site in some detail Saturday night - big sucker ain't it ....
Nicely put together as I said previously you are to be congratulated for your site.
I can see now that the information is extremely similar in content - so the interim acknowledgment will become permanent.
I thank you for your gracious permission .....
I would be interested on where you gained your Opinion on War ......
Yes please let me know about copyright, and also as it applies to stuff u have on your site as well .... as for netiqutte _ I've seen your version of it - if that's the standard - I pass
As for your mails sent last week - I decided I was too close to the exchange to reach a fair and reasonable conclusion.
You seem to think you can garnish support & sent threatening mails - prior to my even responding to you in the first instance.
That you can get pointed mails sent to me from these people before an explanation is sent,
that you can send more threatening angry rude mails to me with impunity, in fact it also appears you have a vindictive streak as well.
This link may help ? http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html - I have asked a few folks to give me their unbiased Opinion on all the mails that were sent. I will let you know in due course what will be the result or decision from that viewing - a wide spectrum was asked - including ex SAS personnel
Cheers
Steve
http://www.vf750fd.com/
VF750FD CBR900RRW

Murray's replys 7 off
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:06:07 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you This link may help ...... http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/
Murray ever so kindly tells one to go fuck yourself here - your a top bloke Murray

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:07:22 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you http://www.pathcom.com/~newmoon/stop.htm
stop stealing on the web

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:15:41 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you
check this out http://www.linz1.net/freep163.html

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:28:05 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you
Check this out...http://www.bruceclay.com/webthief.htm

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:57:58 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you
Check this out http://www.copyright.org.au/PDF/InfoSheets/G056v03.pdf

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:46:07 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you
If you don't understand by now, that is your problem. If intellectual copyright means nothing to you, please send me your business architectural papers and I will publish them as mine and market them as mine. Or is intellectual copyright all about ego as you insist? Don't bother writing to me, I'm already regretting trying to be polite and seeking cooperation.

Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:58:38 +0800 From: muzza
Subject: Re: back at you
Spend some time here... http://www.copyright.org.au/page3.htm

The last mail I sent in this saga ......

To: motorcycle@bigfoot.com From: steve@superbikeclub.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 23:38:29
Subject: Re: back at you --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was never a copyright problem Murray - the acknowledgment was put up as soon as I could,
and you were notified - the issue has been your approach and attitude - polite - don't think so
Cheers
Steve

The sum total of this is - I have decided to post the mail's in their complete sent and received state as an exercise in how not to respond via email or use electronic medium or as a lesson in how misunderstood some recipients can get - not to mention the abuse. I should have dealt with it better - but no ones perfect .....

You can mail me here